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PDX Forsale FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
for these usenet .forsale groups:
pdx.forsale - or.forsale - pnw.forsale - salem.forsale Guidelines to help you sell stuff and buy stuff here.
A monthly posting, more or less. Last revised: 6/1/2003
- TOC
INTRODUCTION: .forsale news groups are about private nettizens selling USED
stuff to other private nettizens. .forsale news groups are NOT for businesses selling new
merchandise at retail.
These news hierarchies:
* or.whatever
* pdx.whatever
* salem.whatever
* pnw.whatever
Are for these limited geographic areas of The USA:
* Oregon USA
* Portland, Oregon USA
* Salem, Oregon USA
* Pacific Northwest USA / Canada
(Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Alaska, British Columbia)
Since this is a .forsale newsgroup, you are welcome to advertise
your stuff for sale here, as long as it, and you, are in the
geographical area listed in the scope of the newsgroup as
outlined above.
GENERAL GUIDELINES FOR SELLERS:
* Write a clear understandable headline in the Subject field.
* Give us some real information about what you're selling, or
wanting to buy, in the body of the message.
* Always give a price, and state: "asking" or "firm" when selling.
* Use hotlinks instead of posting in HTML or attaching pictures.
* Do not SPAM.
GENERAL GUIDELINES FOR BUYERS:
* Remember all transactions are As Is, Where Is
* Ask good questions
* Show up when you say you will
* Bring Cash
* There is No Gurantee of the merchandise or the seller
Q: WHAT CAN / SHOULD I POST HERE?
A: Stuff for sale:
Vehicles, electronics, furnishings, computer anything, tools,
critters, crafts, charity auctions, swap meets, collectibles,
garage/estate/moving sales, sporting goods, event tickets,
trades.....
Housing:
For Sale or For Rent, by owner (NO realtors or property
mgt. co's) Roommates or Housemates wanted.
Q: WHY IS HTML BAD? 1 A: Even if you do not mess it up, posting your item in HTML makes it
difficult or impossible for a big chunk of your intended audience
to read. 1
For best results on usenet, or email lists, always turn HTML and
/ or Proportional fonts OFF.
Q: WHY IS POSTING A PICTURE BAD?
A: Downloading pictures takes time, even if the picture has gone
through data compression to make it real small.
Most people reading newsgroups still use dial up lines, not
broadband, or corporate DS-3 connections.
Wasting other people's time is always considered rude.
It is hard to sell stuff to people who think you are rude.
Further Context:
A lot of casual merchandise browsing takes place on .forsale
newsgroups. People will click on your headline for more info,
even if they doubt they'd want to buy today. This is a good
thing for you, because 60% of big ticket sales of items like
cars and boats and Home Electronics are made to people who
say they are "just looking" when they walk into the showroom.
If you force them to wait for the download of a picture, before
they have decided that your item is actually interesting, some
people will feel that you've just stolen some of their time.
If you've ever waited for an stupid 350k graphic image to
download over a dial up line when what you wanted was a movie
schedule, then you should understand this irritation perfectly.
It is STRONGLY recommended that you post the pix on a web site
and put a hotlink to it in your posting.
Q:I am NOT a geek and I want to Post a Picture! HELP!!!! A: Help is here.
You may have noticed a lot of items here with a hotlink to
http://www.pdxforsale.com. This is a free service that lets
you post pictures for free, and automagically places a posting
here as well. Pretty Cool and we thank the host who wishes to be anonymous.
Q: WHY ARE HOTLINKS GOOD? 1 A: Pictures attached to a in postings are considered rude.
(See above) URL pointers to web pages with pix and product
data are polite. Use them often. It's just simple courtesy.
If you want someone to give you money - and you are not Bill Gates
- it's good to be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, trustworthy,
loyal, thrifty, clean...
200 - TOC Q: WHAT DO I PUT IN THE SUBJECT LINE OF MY POST?
A: The subject of your posting is the headline for your advertisement.
Give it careful thought, to be informative and get attention.
Suggestions For Your Subject/Headline:
ITEM CATEGORY / BRAND / MODEL / AGE / ASKING PRICE
Imagine what you would want to know and say that.
Examples:
Snowmobile, Yamaha G-360, 1999 $500 o.b.o.
Nikon F1, w/70-210 Zoom $295
For Rent: 3 Bed 2 bath House, SE PDX, $1,295/mo
House - SE PDX, 3 br, 2 ba, 2 car gar, Fam-Rm, 1/4 acre, $949,000
IBM PC-XT 8088-4.77mhz, 256k RAM, 5meg HD - $5,500 o.b.o.
Q: HOW SHOULD I PRICE MY ITEM?
A: Just as you do in a dead tree classifieds section. Most people
shop here seeking bargains, so savvy sellers pad the lowest price
they'll accept a little bit. Usually the buyer's ego is served if
s/he negotiates you down a few bucks, and it is always in the
sellers interests to serve the ego of the buyer. 5% is a good
guideline.
If you don't want to play the game that way, fine, but tell us so,
by saying that your price is FIRM. i.e.:
Price: $100.00 FIRM
You can encourage people to open negotiations for the item by
soliciting offers. i.e.:
Asking: $100
$100 or best offer
Asking: $100 o.b.o.
Q: PREFIXES FOR SUBJECT LINE?
A: Frequently Used Prefixes:
FS ==== For Sale (Not recommended. See discussion below).
WTB === Want To Buy. (WTB is better than WANTED)
WTT === Want to Trade.
FS/T == For Sale or Trade. You'll take trades or cash.
FREE == Come get this, er, valuable stuff, and haul it away.
FA ==== For Auction (usually contains a hotlink to eBay page
(see auction discussion below)
OT ==== Off Topic, but perhaps interesting to this community.
FOR RENT = Homes, trailers, apartments, mountain or beach houses.
TICKETS == Event tickets you don't need and want to sell.
Q: VEHICLES: WHAT INFO IS NORMAL TO LIST?
A: Year, Make, Model, Mileage, Engine, Transmission, General Condition,
Known Repair Needs, Color, Cloth/Vinyl/Leather, asking price.
Posting Market Price info from Kelly Bluebook is good too.
See: http://www.kbb.com
Q: COMPUTERS: WHAT INFO IS NORMAL TO LIST?
A: CPU brand and Speed. Megs of System RAM, Megs of Video RAM,
Max Rez for video card, Max Rez for Monitor, Monitor Size & Brand,
Make & Model of Motherboard, if known, Age of Everything, Gigabytes
of Hard Disk, Zip/CD/CDR/DVD/Audio info. OS. Asking Price.
Laptops: size/weight/age/carry case if any.
Any extras, including software that you'll toss in.
Q: HOUSING: WHAT INFO IS NORMAL TO LIST?
A: Price/rent, How many: bedrooms, bathrooms, parking spaces (incl.
garage). Show: Square Footage, Grade/Middle/High Schools, Public
Transportation options. RENTALS: Deposits, smoking & pet rules,
date available. What part part of town (Good = intersections or
landmarks nearby. Best = the street address, but we know sometimes
that's not practical). Hotlinks to web pages with Pix are great.
Realtor = SPAM, So Don't.
Q: SINCE USENET IS _FREE_ SHOULD I RE-POST EVERY HOUR?
A: No.
News servers hold postings for a minimum of a week to 10 days.
some hold them for months. Posting every day is much too often.
Three posts a week is pretty much saturation coverage.
Q: OOPS, I GOOFED UP A DETAIL
A: No big deal, we all do that from time to time. Just post a reply
to your own first posting. Add the word UPDATE or CORRECTION to
the subject line. Canceling a usenet post does NOT work 100%, but
once you've posted your update, go ahead and try canceling your
'in error' post
Q: CAN I ANNOUNCE AN ITEM I HAVE FOR AUCTION ON E-BAY?
A: Auction announcements are new turf, still controversial, and may
be banned from the .forsale hierarchies someday.
To avoid having auction announcements banned someday, courtesy
on your part is important today.
* ANNOUNCE that this is an Auction with FA (For Auction) in
the subject/headline of your post.
* Your auction page will have a URL. Put it in your post.
* Include the body of your auction offer or other descriptive
words in your post to entice us to follow the link, otherwise
we'll probably ignore it.
* If the item is not within about an hours drive of the region
listed in the newsgroups hierarchy don't post it there.
Q: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO POST A URL?
A: When posting URL's remember the http://www.
Some news reader programs won't know that katu.com is a URL
and may not turn it into a hotlink on screen. Check these lines:
katu.com/weather/
www.katu.com/weather/
http://www.katu.com/weather/
If any or all of the above URL's are blue and underlined, YOUR
news reader has recognized as hotlinks and you can click on them.
Some email/browser programs WILL NOT recognize a hotlink without
the http://www. Always use http:// on usenet, and email.
Remember you are trying to sell something. Courtesy sells.
Q: HOW DO I BUILD A WEB PAGE AND POST IT TO MY PERSONAL WEB SPACE?
A: That's beyond the scope of this FAQ. If you don't yet know how to
build a simple web page, it is an easy-to-acquire skill and very
much worth the 15 minutes it should take to get started. Somebody
you know has that skill. Consider treating them to lunch, and
asking for pointers on getting started.
Q: BUT MY ISP DOESN'T PROVIDE ME WITH WEB SPACE TO DO THAT! A1: If it's been a while, perhaps it's time check again to be sure.
If your ISP still doesn't give free web space along with your
dial-up account, you may wish to give your biz to one who will.
There are also many free webpage options out there.
BTW: the manufacturer of the widget you're selling probably has a
page online for it. If so, put a hotlink to that page in your ad.
A2: Help is here.
You may have noticed a lot of items here with a hotlink to
http://www.pdxforsale.com. This is a free service that lets
you post pictures for free, and automagically places a posting
here as well.
Q: WHY SHOULD *I* CARE ABOUT *YOUR* BANDWIDTH? I HAVE CABLE/DSL! 1 A: Lucky you. Now pause and remember that just because you have
broadband, others may not. In December 2002, only 5.9% of US
homes with internet accounts had broadband. Many homes still
cannot get broadband, (DSL or Cable Modems, or wireless) and
don't want to pay for satellite service. Other folks just
don't see the need to part with the bucks (yet.) Accessing the
net via broadband will be limited for many years to come. So
again, consider the selling advantage of simple courtesy.
Q: WHAT ABOUT "FS" OR "FOR SALE" IN MY SUBJECT LINE?
A: That is a point of controversy.
My advice is:
Skip the FS in .forsale newsgroups.
DO use FS as prefix in posts to the non .forsale NG's.
It's pretty natural to say "For Sale" when you're trying to sell
something. Hard to resist in fact. But ask yourself this: "How
often you see FOR SALE in the classifieds of a dead tree
publication like the GoryOnion or Nickle Ads? The answer is:
"Never." Online, there's no consensus, but here's my Not So
Humble Opinion: Putting FS in the subject line of a posting to
a .forsale newsgroup is not necessary because it is...
because it is... because it is..... redundant.
FOR SALE is the default presumption. Anything else is:
OT (Off Topic)
FA (For Auction)
WTB/WTT (Want to Buy / Want To Trade)
So, put FS in your subject if you feel you must, but consider:
that .forsale newsgroups are, after all, about things for sale.
Would you be reading it if you weren't looking for stuff to buy?
Would you be posting at all if you didn't want to sell something?
If after this discussion you still feel that your posting to
the .forsale newsgroup simply must have F/S, FS or FOR SALE in the
subject line, FS is recommend because, well because it's shorter.
Further Discussion:
IT IS A GOOD THING to put FS in the subject of a posting to
newsgroups where selling stuff is NOT a part of the charter.
Bear in mind, that posting a FOR SALE item to many, if not
most, non .forsale newsgroups will get you flamed, mail bombed,
or worse. Basic Nettiquette says always read a news group for
at least 10 days prior to posting ANYTHING there. You can read
that much history and more, instantly on Google Groups
http://www.groups.google.com/
Q: IF I'M SELLING COMPUTER STUFF SHOULD I CROSS POST TO pdx.computing?
A: That's actually against the charter of that newsgroup, but you'll
notice that most of the posts there are "for sale" items. For now,
that looks like it's ok, but since it is NOT a .forsale newsgroup
it's a good idea to put FS: in the subject line. If you don't like
the idea of stuff forsale in pdx.computing, help mount a campaign
to create a new newsgroup called: pdx.forsale.computing.
Q: SHOULD I CROSS POST TO pdx.forsale, or.forsale, AND pnw.forsale?
A: If you and the item you offer for sale is in Portland, Oregon or
the Pacific Northwest: yes. Otherwise no.
Q: I GOT RIPPED OFF BY ONE OF YOUR MEMBERS! WHAT YA GONNA DO ABOUT IT?
A: Nothing.
It doesn't work that way. Members of any of the over 65,000
usenet communities 1 cannot have their membership revoked.
You will hear that usenet is an anarchy 1 . Well, it is. YOU are
responsible for determining: what it is you are buying and if the
merchandise is what you hope it is, and otherwise a fair deal.
Once exceedingly rare, rip-offs do happen. It may be for dollar
amounts below the radar of cops or FBI types, but you CAN tell the
news:pdx.forsale community about your experiences. It's ok to be
angry, but take care to also be factual, and VERY specific.
If you later learn that you misunderstood, you should post
twice as many retractions as you previously posted grievances.
We try to send people ATTABOY's for admitting their mistakes....
....but don't expect it.
Q: I SOLD IT (YAY)!! NOW WHAT?
A: Posting that an item is SOLD is a nice thing to do, and if there
is an element of "Yay" for you, that's good too. Reply to
your own post, and put SOLD in the SUBJECT line.
Original Post Subject Line:
1971 Hupmobile 250k miles, asking $100
The "Yay I Sold It!" Subject Line:
re: SOLD - 1971 Hupmobile 250k miles, asking $100
SOLD postings should always be REPLIES to the original posts, and
NOT a new message thread. Putting SOLD in the body of the post
is also a nice thing to do.
Q: WHAT'S UP WITH "THE PRICE POLICE?"
A: Welcome to Usenet. ;-)
If somebody does a "Price Cop" reply to your post, usually they
think your asking price is too high, and want to communicate that
idea to you and to their brothers and sisters here on line so that
nobody pays more than a correct amount. In such cases the "Price
Cop" is trying to help you sell your item by helping you find the
correct price where a willing buyer might actually nibble.
Sometimes however, trying to trick YOU into giving THEM a better
price. Sometimes - especially when the sender's return address
is fake - they're just being jerks.
We are happy to help you decide which is which, for a small fee....
Q: WHAT'S UP WITH ALL THESE FLAME WARS?
A: Welcome to Usenet. ;-(
Most of them are started by net Trolls 1 , the balance are just the
way we lovingly express differences of opinion between our brothers
and sisters of the net. With a bit of practice it's easy to spot
the difference between genuine dissagreement and Troll Droppoings.
In either case, you may choose to ignore it, "Flame On" and get
into it, lean back and be entertained by it, or ignore it. The
important rule to remember is:
"Don't let it upset you, or chase you away."
An easy way to spot Trolls is that they tend to use fake names and
non existent email accounts from which to post, just like SPAMers.
Q: WHAT IS SPAM?
A: All of that unsolicited E-Mail you get, which offers "get-rich-quick"
or "loose-30-lbs-of-ugly-fat-in-10-minutes" or "live-nude-poodles"
is called SPAM. Nobody knows why, but the theories are amusing
to research. 1
Posting ads for your business on usenet, is SPAM.
Posting any retail/commercial merchandise on usenet, is SPAM.
Posting Real Estate you don't own, (You're a Realtor) is SPAM.
Posting something in a .forsale newsgroup with a geographic anchor
(pnw. seattle. pdx. eugene. or. etc.), is considered SPAM if YOU
and the item you offer, are not in that area.
Posting to more than one newsgroup is SPAM, unless there is
geographic or technological overlap, i.e.:
pdx.forsale, or.forsale & pnw.forsale.
Q: I WANNA SPAM THIS NEWS GROUP ANYWAY! (nah nah nah nah)
A: Ever hear the phrase "Go ahead, make my day" BWAHAHAHAHA!
OK, here's how it works. If you SPAM this news group, someone
will suggest to your ISP that you have violated your terms of
service (TOS) agreement. 1 It's in that contract you neglected
to read when you signed up for net access. Your ISP will receive
not-so-gentle suggestions that your account should be terminated
immediately without further notice or refund. ISPs usually comply
with these recommendations if they discover that you have ever
SPAMed from their servers or any other server on the planet.
If you SPAM, someone may also call "Fair Game" on you. You
don't want that to happen. No, we won't explain. Look it up. 1
Now that the internet is officially part of the USA's vital
infrastructure, there is legislation pending to make SPAM a
capital crime. Most of us think the death penalty for SPAMing
is NOT strong enough and are actively lobbying for additional
penalties.
Q: WHAT ABOUT ALL THAT SPAM IN MY E-MAIL BOX
A: They are wily clever criminals who are one step ahead of the law,
exploiting greedy but clueless business people. They get busted
and have their access to the net shut down regularly, but they
keep moving on. If that's the life you want to lead... we are all
very sad for you.
Q: WHY WOULD MY ISP NOT WANT TO KEEP ME AS A CUSTOMER EVEN IF I SPAM?
A: If an ISP knows that SPAM is coming out of their systems, they must
shut the SPAM down. If they don't, other ISP's can and will refuse
ALL mail from that ISP and their clients. This can happen even if
a SPAMer hacks in, and uses the ISP to broadcast SPAM without the
ISP's knowledge or permission.
Q: YEAH. RIGHT.
A: This is a drop-dead-serious issue. Big Dog's are not exempt. In
1999 @home.com, (which became attbi.com, which became comcast.net) was within hours of having all
mail from their customers blocked, for failing to close security
holes that SPAMers were exploiting. They got religion with only
a few hours to spare.
Q: WOAH! COOL! I WANNA BE A SPAM COP TOO! HOW DO I GET STARTED?
A: Good for you. How to do that effectively is beyond the scope of
this FAQ, so you'll have to do some research on your own.
In general, try to use your judgment to distinguish between someone
who's just learning how usenet works - and blundering - and a
hard-core spammer. If you suspect that it might be a newbie
blunder, try sending a polite note to them about nettiquette before
asking the ISP to disconnect the account.
Forwarding this FAQ to newbies who blunder, is a good option if you
don't want to spend time composing your own message. If your email
bounces, you're probably dealing with a hard core, and may invoke:
"Fair Game" 1 rules of SPAM fighting.
Q: ARE THERE SPECIAL RULES FOR BUSINESS ANNOUNCEMENTS?
A: The original usenet guideline was that you may announce the opening
of a new retail enterprise, ONE time only.
Be aware that you may still get flamed 1 and your ISP may be
invited to disown you anyway. You might even get shut down,
although you were well within the guidelines of fair use.
Human decision processes are like that, or Dilbert(tm) wouldn't
be nearly as funny. The average ISP sysadmin is underpaid and
overworked, so s/he may kill your account rather than think about
it for an extra 3 seconds. SPAM is so annoying and there is so
much of it, that everybody seems to chime in on reporting SPAMmers
to their ISP at some point or other. For some it's even a big hobby.
Better to not go there. Sorry. SPAMers are to blame.
{-END-}